Subject: A rat is a rat
LHS15@aol.com
rats as you would call them help the police everyday. they are one of the most best ways of geting info. i know i what they did to kevin was really really bad. but he was no saint too. (but its still not fuly his part), most of the blame i say goes to the cops but still can you dream of a world with no "rats"?

droxx@niagara.com
That brings up an interesting point. How would you feel about a rat who was an accomplice to the swindlers who bilked your grandmother out of $10 000? When is a rat a good rat, anyway? If your crime was one of low moral value, and you can honestly either say you have never done anything similar, or admit to your role, then you may cast the first incriminating stone I suppose.

rotten@cyberverse.com
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Shiftlock wrote:
> Although I see your point, the person who would have won the Porsche if > Poulsen didn't cheat the contest might think differently. > That person's life was changed by Poulsen's crime.

You're making a theoretical point. I could retort by stating that in the grand scheme of things, FATE determined who the winner would be, not Kevin, not KIIS-FM, nobody. Fate.

"That person" doesn't exist. If they do, I'd like their name. Who was the person who was going to win had it not been for Kevin's actions?

> Hacking is one thing, but the second > you're in it for the money, for any reason, you're no longer a hacker, you're > a thief who uses a computer. It's about knowledge and information, not > cars and cash.

Kevin acknowledges that it was a bad thing, and not in line with hacker ethics, but I defy you to act differently should the FBI come after YOU with trumped up charges. You'd shit your pants.

He didn't sell anyone out, he didn't cause any financial damage to ANYONE.

When you're dealing with taking something that is given away, you cross into a grey area.

<..rOTTEN..>

nobody move, nobody get hurt

error187(1) critical failure

Rotten, that was a *rotten* attempt at justifying pure bullshit. I repeat, your friend Poulsen was a thief, regardless of the circumstances. In fact he worked with Petersen in rigging contests to win more than just cars. You have a way of getting off the subject to cover your ass. Not this time. The point was being made that Mitnick was not like Poulsen or Petersen or Minor Threat or any of those bastards. Mitnick did what we all do. He tested his computer skills. Poulsen is a nice guy, aren't we all? But he was guilty of crimes which brought him big bucks. Mitnick did not do that and he didn't rat out anyone. I heard that Poulsen was ready to turn states evidence against Petersen at one time because he was so pissed at asshole *agent steal* for turning on him. You may be Poulsen's friend, but he doesn't need you to defend every one of his illegal actions on this damn mailing list. You are sounding more and more like Petersen. Justify, justify, justify! And what the fuck are you justifying? You are trying to do one of your slam dunk kill the other guy before he has a chance to present the truth acts. Get back to the damn subject, and let your butt buddy Poulsen fight his own battles. And is it true that you were doing the same thing as Poulsen, but you were so computer illiterate that your computer blew up before you could win a Ford Pinto.

Sounds like you, since you tell us over and over you are not a HACKER, you are an artist. Start a Poulsen mailing list and run your mouth somewhere else.

thebuzzz@hotmail.com
What about fairness? Would you want to enter a contest if you knew some asshole was cheating and was going to win the prize? Hell no!

If Mitnick had done the *Poulsen radio gig*, his poor attorneys would have to repeat, NO COMMENT, all day long. How would reporters support him, or the writers on this list? How many times have you heard the attorneys and the media say, "Kevin Mitnick never did any hacking for profit!"

Of course we would all like to win expensive sportscars and trips to Europe by pulling Poulsen stunts. But how many of us would like to go to prison for 4 or 5 years if caught. How many of us would have the balls and the stamina to keep going year after year.

There is no honor among thieves. They cut each other's throats at the first chance. And I am discovering there is no honor among hackers. Just look at the comments on this list. The majority think Poulsen was justified in doing what he did simply because his friend, rotten eggs, said he was running from the Feds. How do we know that is the truth? Because hacker, excuse me, artist rotten says so?

Why are we so outraged about what the system is doing to Mitnick? One big reason is because there is something honorable about him. You can't say that for the other hackers who have served time. And you're damn right-- what happened to Mitnick can happen to the average guy walking down the street who has never been convicted of one thing. He could find himself locked up with no money, a public defender, and no way out.

So let's get back to the subject of Mitnick and fuck the RATS!

On 11:44 PM 8/21/98 -0700, I personally witnessed Buzz Goldstein jumping up to say: > >Why are we so outraged about what the system is doing to >Mitnick? One big reason is because there is something >honorable about him.

Actually, that doesn't matter to me at all. I like that he's honorable, but I don't care who you are -- nobody should be held for three and a half years without a trial. Even Jeffrey Dahmer and Charles Manson didn't have to defend themselves under the sort of unfair conditions Kevin is expected to work from. Yes, Kevin's sense of honor and refusal to capitalise on his skills *do* make him more likable, but it's still basically a matter of human rights -- not of whether someone *deserves* this kind of treatment or not. I'm of the opinion that no one does. Ever. Under any circumstances. Period.

Incidentally... has anyone else here wondered if Kevin's refusal to capitalise on his skills is part of what makes him so inscrutable to the public and the system? You have to admit, it's strange, and since I have a similar attitude toward things (I've left several high-paying jobs I didn't like to go work more interesting places for a LOT less money) I've noticed that this is regarded as almost a sort of insanity. (Altruistic personality disorder?) Does anyone else think this might be part of why Kevin is being treated so differently?

--- =+[ caliban@darklock.com ]=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=[ http://www.darklock.com/ ]+= "It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than the creation of a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old institution, and merely lukewarm defenders in those who would gain by the new one." -- Niccolo Machiavelli =+=+[ FREE KEVIN * http://www.kevinmitnick.com/ * IT COULD BE YOU ]+=+=+=

"Kevin Joubert"
-----Original Message-----
From: Shiftlock
To: mitnick@2600.com
Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [mitnick] A rat is a rat.
>
>was changed by Poulsen's crime. Hacking is one thing, but the second
>you're in it for the money, for any reason, you're no longer a hacker,
you're
>a thief who uses a computer. It's about knowledge and information, not
>cars and cash.

Agreed. Poulsen crossed a line. He became a thief for whatever reason. His motives may not have been malicious but that is where he stepped out of the "gray area". (Read Les Miserables)

But also keep in mind... anyone who does a rolling stop or exceeds the speed limit IS a CRIMINAL. Our society is FULL of criminals. The cops fear anyone who knows more than they do. (Which leaves a pretty group of people for them to fear. ) That is their motivation for their treatment of Kevin.

Rotten,
Motive should be taken into account when sentencing someone for the crime. NOT when you are trying to determine if he is guilty of the crime. He DID commit the crime. It IS against the law. The govt. was able to PROVE he did it. Therefore, he IS guilty. However, keeping in mind that no one was hurt and all the other valid points you have made.. I feel Poulsen's treatment (as well as Kevin's current and impending treament) have been WAY TOO FUCKIN HARSH.

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